Alchemy or polishing a turd? 

"DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time" (dc3ls-) 01/07/2017 at 21:52 • Filed to: None

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Here’s a hypothetical for y’all.

Let’s say you take an old muscle car like this mustang here. Weld in sub-frame connectors, replace the K member with a modern one, convert it to coil over suspension, retrofit a rack and pinion steering rack, and upgrade to modern disc brakes and decent tires. Oh and aluminum heads and/or block to trim the heavy nose.

My question is, after all of that. Would you have a good handling car or just a better handling car?

I know those are vague terms, but would it be something you would say

“Wow this is a great handling car!”

Or

“Hey, this handles pretty good for a muscle car .”

kind of get my point?

Also this doesn’t have to be specific to the Mustang. I was just using that as an example.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 21:56

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There’s a whole community of people who do that, it’s called restomodding. From my understanding, it’s more the latter than the former. The old bodies aren’t as aerodynamic or lightweight.

Steve in Manhattan > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 21:58

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A car that handles is an S2000 or a Miata (one of which I’ve driven). I’m thinking, having only driven a stock 60s Mustang, that the weighty bodywork would prevent any cornering that gave you that tingle. And that car was a Falcon before it was a “muscle” car.

crowmolly > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:01

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It can be both.

For the most part, it will be better , but some stuff can be in the realm of good. Takes dollars and effort though, a Summit catalog may not get you there.

If you have a place like DSE do the build it can be very good.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > Carbon Fiber Sasquatch 01/07/2017 at 22:01

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Awwww. Although it makes since. Their’s no way you’ll make a 1st gen Camaro as aerodynamic as an F-body :(

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > Steve in Manhattan 01/07/2017 at 22:03

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Fair enough. But carbon fiber body panels! /jk

slipperysallylikespenguins > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:03

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Look up the Optima Invitational. Most of the muscle cars on there will run with modern ZO6s and 911s.

http://justacarguy.blogspot.com/search/label/Optima%20Challenge

Berang > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:03

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It won’t be a good handling car until it has a chassis designed by Lotus.

crowmolly > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:06

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First gen Camaro IS an f-body. Pro Touring is what you need to look up.

And yea, aero is an issue, but Big Red (‘69 Camaro) did 230 mph in the Silver State classic. In 1993.

As far as weight... some of the older cars are lighter than you’d think. A ‘67 Nova SS has a shipping weight of just over 2800.

Remember, stuff like this exists:

Carbon fiber, 12 lbs each.

lone_liberal > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:10

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The answer, of course, is it depends on how much money you have and are willing to spend. At between 2500 and 3000lbs. they aren’t all that heavy and if you have the suspension and steering done by an expert shop I’m sure you could build an honestly good handling car.

Steve in Manhattan > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:11

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You would spend yourself into penury ... and still have trouble in the corners.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > slipperysallylikespenguins 01/07/2017 at 22:18

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You may have given me enough hope to try this one day. Except I’ll give myself a head start and start with a Corvette because fiber glass and aerodynamics!

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > crowmolly 01/07/2017 at 22:21

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Ah! I meant the 4th gen. I always think they were the only one’s called F-bodys for whatever reason.

crowmolly > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:21

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Nope, ‘67-’02 had the F designation.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > Berang 01/07/2017 at 22:30

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I’ll do like Jeremy Clarkson Mercedes Land Rover abomination. The key is that the muscle car body will be much bigger and easily fit over the lotus!

Die-Trying > crowmolly 01/07/2017 at 22:32

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64 nova, 283 sbc 2 door post, 2675 lbs..... fun stuff.......

SirDrivesAlot (now with hybrid powerrrr) > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:40

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As long as you keep the live rear axle , you would at best have a “handles pretty good” I had a ‘66 Mustang once upon a time, and that rear end was prone to bump steer.

WilliamsSW > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 22:45

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Contrary to popular belief, these are not heavy cars, at all - despite having a big lump of iron under the hood.

However, the brakes and suspensions were awful. You’d have to redo everything, so it would cost a fortune, and you’d still have too much weight on the nose, unless you went with front bodywork from alternative materials (not uncommon in drag cars from the era).

You could get there- NASCAR racers were closer to stock back then- but it would cost a lot I think.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > WilliamsSW 01/07/2017 at 22:50

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I’d imagine a GM would be a bit easier, for shaving weight of the nose. Since you could swap in an aluminum LS. If I’m not mistaken LSs can be easily converted to a carburetor(ion).

WilliamsSW > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 23:04

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66-67 Nova would be a great platform for this. They’re under 3000 lb even with an iron SBC under the hood. Early Chevelle would work, too.

Back in 62-63, Chevy built a few Impala hardtops with aluminum fenders and a few other tricks, and managed to get 55-60% of the weight on the rear wheels- with a cast iron 427 under the hood - so it can be done.

My first car was a 65 Cutlass - 310 HP and under 3500 lb. It was a great car, but all cars back then were understeering pigs with more body roll then an ocean liner and no brakes. There’s nothing underneath those cars you would keep, if you’re trying to get it to handle well.

wiffleballtony > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 23:05

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At that point it really isn’t that similar to the old car and would probably handle well.

crowmolly > WilliamsSW 01/07/2017 at 23:15

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Only downside to the Gen II Nova is that the front suspension design is a bit wonky from what I remember. You’d have to redo it all for the most part, and I don’t really mean bolt-on stuff.

e36Jeff now drives a ZHP > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 23:18

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I mean if you went full Ken Block on it and converted it to Hoonicorn spec it would handle amazingly well for anything with 4 wheels.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > WilliamsSW 01/07/2017 at 23:28

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True. I have a buddy who had a ‘70s Nova. I remember the weight of that was almost the same as my EG at the time.

I’ll also wait to see how EricTheCarGuy’s Fairmount turns out. I kind of got the inspiration from him. Just minus the 600hp turbocharged 302 lol.

Vid if your unfamiliar with it. It’s long, but I set it to start at the part when he talks about the front suspension. He did a really good job upgrading the entire car. He did 3 video’s just on welding sub-frame connectors and another 3 long ones just on setting up the diff and axle lol.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > wiffleballtony 01/07/2017 at 23:30

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That’s what I’m hoping for. I know it won’t be a S2k or Miata, but if I could get something like that to handle like a 335i. I’d be much more than happy.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > e36Jeff now drives a ZHP 01/07/2017 at 23:33

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True. Although money would be a huge limiting factor lol.

WilliamsSW > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/07/2017 at 23:48

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Thanks for the link- I’m not familiar with it, but I’ll have to watch it a bit later. From your description though, it sounds like he’s doing similar mods.

I’m guessing your buddy’s Nova was 74 or earlier. After that, the Nova got pretty hefty. It’s amazing how light cars can be when they don’t have much in the way of safety features...

WilliamsSW > crowmolly 01/08/2017 at 00:10

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I didn’t realize that- but it’s not surprising. Chevy did quite a few things differently from Buick-Olds-Pontiac in the 60s, and it was always to cut cost by a few bucks a car.

camaroboy68ss > WilliamsSW 01/08/2017 at 00:12

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ah the Z-11 impalas, with aluminum fenders so delicate that pretty much touching them would dent them. they also had a aluminum bumpers and brackets as well.

TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/08/2017 at 00:15

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The biggest failing old cars had beyond poop brakes and slow steering was hilarious suspension geometry. In the case of most old Ford’s at least, they would actually go camber positive as the suspension compresses. A set of control arms to fix that, modern brakes and tires and a faster steering box with power assist, and you’re set. The gains from a rack conversion would probably be pretty negligible when you factor in the cost and time. A junk yard option for front suspension would be the classic Mustang II suspension conversion. I think, they might have had rack and pinion steering factory, so it would move over with the new front clip.

You probably wouldn’t have to much of anything to the rear suspension, ( again using Ferds as my example), beyond a sway bar and some nice shocks. The leaf springs can be fiddled with pretty easy, pulling leaves and moving shackles, things like that.

As for weight, build a small block Ford. A 289, 302 or 351 Windsor with aluminum heads and intake would be a nice cheap ticket. I know the Fox body 5.0 I pulled for my other Capri only weighed 30 or 40 pounds more than the old 2.0litre V6 that came out of it. Thats engine and trans combined, but the old V6 had iron heads and intake as well as a cast iron transmission.

If you want, I can get some pictures of the suspension on the JPS, its got Macpherson strut front suspension and a slow rear axle with mono-leaf springs in the back.

camaroboy68ss > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/08/2017 at 00:19

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its still really a loose term no matter what since your basing the handling off how todays cars with all its advancements in research and development and extra years of design.

For example you can take, say a 67-69 Camaro and do a few key mods that were available when these cars were new and they would handle leaps and bounds better than anything from the same era. Then look at say a 3rd gen Camaro (82-92) these cars just really lacked horsepower. they handled extremely well for its time compared to other cars of the same era.

For blending modern advancements in both engine and chassis tech then look at cars built by Mark Stielow. his string of first gen Camaros over the years are the top of the class of blending old with new.

WilliamsSW > camaroboy68ss 01/08/2017 at 00:23

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Those are the ones, yep! I’ve always wondered what they handled like— not that anyone ever turned the steering wheel in them.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > TheVancen- In Pursuit of a Greater Payday and Car Parts 01/08/2017 at 00:47

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Thanks! Don’t worry about the pics. This won’t be something I’ll be doing in the near future. Hopefully, but not likely.

My bird IS the word > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/08/2017 at 02:12

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Depends on the old car in question. Some of the smaller pony cars actually handled pretty good. The late seventies trans ams with the WS6 suspension (that I don’t have) were supposed to handle extremely well. Big ass sway bars, stiffer shocks, wider wheels, and four wheel disc brakes made it decently modern. Larger rims with low sidewalls help alot too.

Hell, mustangs used live axles until recently. old setups arent that big a detriment, but the money you spend would be better spent on a different car.

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/08/2017 at 11:06

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http://www.pro-touring.com/threads/79329-65-mustang-suspension-upgrades

what you want to look for is pro touring

Possible, depends how much you can spend and how crazy you want to go

the mustang was based off the falcon small car and isn’t that complicated.

camaroboy68ss > WilliamsSW 01/08/2017 at 14:40

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other than the nose and other weight saving stuff, they were pretty much stock impala’s. no trick suspension at all. they might have had different rated springs front and rear to help with weight transfer coming off the line, but I’m pretty sure the chassis was the same as any 409 impala.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > My bird IS the word 01/08/2017 at 14:57

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!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

NOOOOOOOOOOO!

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > gmporschenut also a fan of hondas 01/08/2017 at 15:00

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True. I wonder how much the Vagabond falcon cost. He did quite a bit with the suspension.

WilliamsSW > camaroboy68ss 01/08/2017 at 16:58

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Yeah I was thinking they moved the battery to the trunk? I might be wrong about that though. But otherwise yeah- and I’m sure they had stiff/soft springs front /rear. Not a lot of modification compared to the later funny cars, etc.

camaroboy68ss > WilliamsSW 01/08/2017 at 18:50

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it wasn’t even as wild as its GM counter part the Pontiac Swiss Cheese cars.

WilliamsSW > camaroboy68ss 01/08/2017 at 19:12

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I saw one of those for sale online recently. Couldn’t believe how big the frame holes were. Surprised it was still structurally sound.

Can’t remember where I saw it - BaT or ebay, probably. IIRC the seller was claiming it was the real deal.

My bird IS the word > DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time 01/10/2017 at 17:27

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how much do you really want to spend on suspension, vs a car designed to work properly? I love muscle cars, but they aren’t the best jumping off point.

DC3 LS, will be perpetually replacing cars until the end of time > My bird IS the word 01/10/2017 at 17:31

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Not really about making it handle like a S2K or Miata. But say non-M 5 series? Enjoyable, but not necessarily an autocross weapon. Idk about spending. though. This is just an idea in the back of my mind. Not gonna happen anytime soon lol.